More on Joe Milller

Dateline: Thu 26 Aug 2010

From a knowladgeable source, the second person today to contact me about the death of Joe Miller:

"He owned a company that made a legal drug popular in the gay community, ;Poppers..' Amyl Nitrate...sold in gay bars and in head shops as 'tape head cleaner,' outlawed in a few states...he made tens of millions off it, and had a lifestyle that was very fast, expensive, and, in some folks' eyes (maybe mine too!) illegal. He had a penchant for, shall we say, younger men.  Expensive younger men.

"Gave away a lot of his money, but...he couldn't buy off every gossip hound.  I don't know how the news media will treat his death...it's very sad.  He gave most of the money for the new Damien Centre when it opened.

"A complicated man..."

Let us see wht the news media makes of this. Indeed.

Comments

Tom Butters [unverified] said:

I didn't know Joe Miller. But I did know Mike Lamm.

Mike died a couple days ago, after a diagnosis in July of lung cancer.

Some of you may know him as the son fo Corky Lamm, longtime and much respected sports writer for The News.

Mike was perhaps the wittiest roue that Indianapolis has produced in a generation or two.

His first wife was Jean Lamm, whom he met while both worked at The News; she became Gov Roger Branigan's press secretary, and thus broke racial barriers. Later the bright and beautiful Jean was Channel 8's first African American on-camera newsperson.

Mike was a Pulliam employee, but he was also an anarchist at heart and went into the ad business. Later he created the Pizza Monster for Noble Roman's, and produced many TV spots for HH Gregg, notably the "Twins" commercials.

Mike was a habitue of The Chatterbox. He knew his jazz, and his beer, and his smokes- which likely contributed to his early demise. He always livened the conversation, his laugh resonated, he was funny as hell, and he had depth.

Bon voyage, Michael Corwin Kendall Lamm.

2010-08-26 22:31:36

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Complicated, indeed. The rumor mill was rampant yesterday as the stories of the downtown gunman ran amuk. A few of those rumors linked Joe's death and the downtown incident. Thankfully, they weren't true. Seems Joe died in his home--apparently by his own hand.

He had a foundation that donated to Damien and other gay causes liberally. In that sense, he was a strong voice.

More will be learned about this death. I'm hoping it's not sordid, and that he rest sin peace. I think he was 60 or so...too young, for sure.

2010-08-27 06:00:52

hendy [Member] said:

Some live by their principles. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Amyls are a sex enhancement drug. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Do I sound like Seinfeld?

What Joe did that got my early admiration was to stand up when standing up and being gay wasn't a popular thing to do. The only place where he could hang his hat were Democratic causes, ideologically, and so much the better for that.

2010-08-27 08:18:17

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Excellent observation, Hendy.

I mean, where was he gonna go with his politicla philosophy? Ronald Reagan's "with-me-or-against-me" party? Nah.

2010-08-27 08:22:08

Walfredo de Freitas [unverified] said:

If Joe Miller did not go too heaven, I do not know where I will go.

2010-08-27 08:40:10

kaballah38 [Member] said:

If Joe Miller did not go to heaven, I do not know where I will go.

2010-08-27 08:41:23

hendy [Member] said:

Decent obit at http://www.bilerico.com/2010/08/activist_philanthropist_joseph_f_miller_dies.php

2010-08-27 15:47:08

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Decent, Hendy, except I knew Joe, and he didn't care for Browning. Ironic, huh?

2010-08-27 16:56:30

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

Ruth said, "Let us see wht the news media makes of this. Indeed."

Absolutely nothing. Not a single mainstream news media report on his death.

I believe he may have been under investigation, Ruth, but that is speculation on my part. The news media seems to be making no effort to find out just as they refused to do any investigative reporting on the illegal distribution of poppers as a recreational drug inhalant for more than two decades by his Great Lakes Products based here in the city. I thought a blog post I did in June on how poppers played a role in the death of an Atlanta gay activist would spur someone in the local new media to take a closer look at him, but I figured wrong.

2010-08-29 08:23:32

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Your post in June was superb, Gary.

Not even an obit yet. Our grand IndyStar.

2010-08-29 09:27:26

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

A Google search shows an IndyStar.com story about the JFM suicide with comments from former Gov. Kernan from 28 Aug., no longer available on 29 Aug.

A Twitpic of this is here:

http://twitpic.com/2jfvtz

...but you can search for yourself, but going to Google and putting in "Indystar.com, Joe Miller, Joe Kernan..." (I initially got the former Gov.'s name spelled incorrectly...)

2010-08-29 14:09:06

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Why would they post the story, which I missed, then take it down? Strange.

2010-08-29 15:44:46

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

Perhaps someone knowledgeable at the Star questioned the stories claim that Miller championed the health of gay men. It is hard to say he cared about the health of gays when he made millions selling a product to them he knew could have extremely harmful affects to them, including death.

2010-08-29 17:15:07

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

Here is a link to a scan of the printed version of the Indianapolis Star story from 28 August, 2010, which has been removed from the on-line version at IndyStar.com...

http://www.twitpic.com/2ji4kn

2010-08-29 18:36:24

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

You might be right, Gary. I read the story from the above link. It's a complete whitewash.

My conspiratorial mind went right to relatives threatenign The Star.

By the way, he didn't "found" Stonewall Democrats. Good Lord.

2010-08-30 04:41:53

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Walsh--Cluephone for you:

There's no obit because obits are handled via the funeral home (one can't just call up the Star and place an obit--it's a shameful scam, but that's how it is, nevertheless). Joe's family is stunned and still making arrangements.

That's all. No big conspiracy. There will be an obit in the next few days.

And maybe nobody jumped on your poppers blog piece because it was full of half-truths and junk science, and was nothing more than yet another round in your continued (and tedious) motivated-by-jealousy crusade against Joe Miller.

And re: the lack of news coverage on the day Joe was found: Hmmm...lemme see...was there any other news that day...?

Oh yeah.

How's about a bunch of double homicides, a shooter/suicide in the middle of downtown, a child getting shot in the head, all on that same day??

Joe Miller ended up being Farah Fawcett to Michael Jackson (or, perhaps just as apt, Mother Teresa to Princess Di)--it was just a completely crazy news day in Indy, and by the time there was space, it was old news.

Couldn't you (Mr. Welsh) and your pwned henchman (Mr. Vore) at least jump for joy over Joe Miller's death in private? Isn't it enough that he's dead, or do you need to dance on his grave and shout it from the rooftops?

You should be ashamed. Joe Miller did more positive acts for humanity in an average day than you will do in a lifetime.

(And re: the Star whitewashing anything regarding Joe Miller's death: Why would a completely conservative-to-the-point-of-inanity RepubliPulliam-owned daily go out of its way to cover up or play down the controversial death of a prominent local Democrat?

Think about it.

And, I can tell you for a fact: no relatives of Joe's have threatened the Star at all.

2010-09-01 22:18:04

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Walsh--Cluephone for you:

There's no obit because obits are handled via the funeral home (one can't just call up the Star and place an obit--it's a shameful scam, but that's how it is, nevertheless). Joe's family is stunned and still making arrangements.

That's all. No big conspiracy. There will be an obit in the next few days.

And maybe nobody jumped on your poppers blog piece because it was full of half-truths and junk science, and was nothing more than yet another round in your continued (and tedious) motivated-by-jealousy crusade against Joe Miller.

And re: the lack of news coverage on the day Joe was found: Hmmm...lemme see...was there any other news that day...?

Oh yeah.

How's about a bunch of double homicides, a shooter/suicide in the middle of downtown, a child getting shot in the head, all on that same day??

Joe Miller ended up being Farah Fawcett to Michael Jackson (or, perhaps just as apt, Mother Teresa to Princess Di)--it was just a completely crazy news day in Indy, and by the time there was space, it was old news.

Couldn't you (Mr. Welsh) and your pwned henchman (Mr. Vore) at least jump for joy over Joe Miller's death in private? Isn't it enough that he's dead, or do you need to dance on his grave and shout it from the rooftops?

You should be ashamed. Joe Miller did more positive acts for humanity in an average day than you will do in a lifetime.

(And re: the Star whitewashing anything regarding Joe Miller's death: Why would a completely conservative-to-the-point-of-inanity RepubliPulliam-owned daily go out of its way to cover up or play down the controversial death of a prominent local Democrat?

Think about it.

And, I can tell you for a fact: no relatives of Joe's have threatened the Star at all.

2010-09-01 22:18:33

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

Your choice of an alias says everything about the low character of a person you are givemeaf.... If you want to idolize a person who became very wealthy manufacturing and distributing an illicit drug that killed many gay men, then go right ahead. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised since we live in a society where the likes of Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, etc. become instant celebrities and make millions leaking their private sex tapes to the Internet.

2010-09-02 06:57:33

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

LOL...tthanks for further illustrating your level of intelligence and logic:

"Man use bad word...must be bad man. He disagree with me...me no like. Me attack him."

I hope every other reader out there who has ever used a naughty word realizes they've just been kicked out of your lofty club, Gary. [And to those new members: Welcome to Humanity. You'll soon discover how tiring and limiting those crumbling, self-appointed pedestals were. Don't mind Gary--he won't be lonely. There will never be a shortage self-righteous, self-loathing people on pedestals alongside him: Larry Craig, Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Ken Melman, etc.]

Gary. Pookie. If you wanna know whose character my screen reflects, take a little field trip and go look in the mirror, then come back and read the rest of this. That is, if you're not too busy either admiring yourself, or vomiting from self-disgust and shame.

Gary, I also notice your attempt to make it sound like your response is actually saying something, while completely ignoring my factual response to your earlier posts attempting to create scandal where there is none, i.e., the lack of an obit, etc.

Instead, you turn my factual response into an attack on my character.

Gosh, I love a theme--thanks for coloring within your lines, Gary. Whew! No need to worry about any surprise expansions of consciousness on your part, let alone any admission of mistake or ignorance.

Btw, while you're coloring, just ignore those other crayons, Gary. Just stick with the black and white ones. The world you live in clearly doesn't need other shades or colors.

And, to be clear, I am not idolizing Joe Miller. He had as many faults as any of us do. Maybe even more. The one major difference between him and you though, is that, in spite of his faults, he tried to do good acts and make a positive difference in the world. You, on the other hand, choose to point your finger elsewhere as to what's wrong with the world. (I refer you to the aforementioned mirror exercise.)

Gary, thank you for yet another example of how much all your faux concerns about gay men's health and this "illict" drug (a drug, by the way, that is completely legal to make, is still legal to use, is legal to sell many places in the world, was legally sold in the USA into the 1990's, and is still used regularly by so many people that, were your spurious accusations about its leading to Kaposi's Sarcoma/serious immunosuppression/death even remotely true, we'd see significant numbers supporting you, instead of the trumped-up death of one gay activist who died in his sleep last June) is really just another attack against a man you personally dislike and disagree with; someone who contributed financially to those other people of low character (gasp!), the Democratic party.

It's also one more pathetic attempt by you to desperately try to paint yourself and your bloviated opinion as important to someone other than yourself.

And your mirror.

Kisses,
*******uck*******

2010-09-02 10:12:23

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

To the anonymous nobody, Mafia bosses have long been known for their generosity with their ill-gotten gains. Tim Durham was very generous with the money he scammed from the Amish and middle class workers in rural Ohio. If you have bothered to follow my writings, you would know that I've written much about him and asked that Republicans who accepted his money return it to the bankruptcy trustee for the benefit of the investors who saw their life savings wiped out. Why are you too ashamed to identify yourself by name as you defend Miller? If you feel so strongly about speaking out in support of him, why won't you put a name to your comments? It's much easier to anonymously attack someone, isn't it? I see you are much the same person Joe Miller was. He was caught on numerous occasions using aliases to personally attack members of the Indianapolis gay community in the blogosphere with whom he disagreed. He was banned from the gayindy.org listserve for engaging in that very act. He, along with another Democratic operative, spoofed e-mails from the Democratic Party headquarters that were sent to a number of Republicans attacking Mitch Daniels for meeting with members of the Rainbow Chamber of Commerce to try to turn Republicans against Daniels for daring to reach out to gay voters.

2010-09-02 13:37:19

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

I like the ring of "pawned henchman" - and certainly enjoy the down-home demeanor of the anonymous writer, as well as "his" sure-wit, grasp of all the facts, metaphors and people involved (while remaining above and outside of it). Definitely the kind of person one would want to write on obit.

But I guarantee you this, my anonymous "friend": you don't know me.

The lack of verifiable news made the situation difficult to understand; the shocking news of JFM's death was compounded by a "suicide" story run by the Star, then pulled on 28 Aug. And all of this happened amidst rumors of law enforcement raids, etc.

So I don't think asking questions about what's going on bothers anyone - or anything. I knew Joe a bit, and the notion that he'd kill himself is pretty unbelievable.

But, from what you write anonymously here, you'll clear everything up shortly.

As for weighing in on the supposed "good and bad" things JFM did in life, this forum is not the place to do it, nor is this the time (and, I add, nor am I so empowered); good luck with your task.

As I wrote on my Facebook page, and Twitter page - I send condolences to JFM's family - and friends I once shared with the deceased.

2010-09-02 22:05:14

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

http://www2.indystar.com/cgi-bin/obituaries/index.php?action=show&id=119967

I only wish I'd written it.

And I hope to be the person Joe Miller was.

Sincerely,
Anonymous Nobody

2010-09-02 22:37:11

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Welsh:

1. Mafia. Seriously? Mafia. Honestly, if Joe Miller had Mafia ties, do you think *you'd* be reading this? Seriously. Can you spell P-A-R-A-N-O-I-D? With your imagination, I'd suggest you explore a career writing film scripts, if only you had a better grasp of the English language. Maybe tv...

2. I don't give a f*** what Tim Durham did, or what you, from your self-righteous, self-appointed place of judgment and being the "decider" of how the world should be, thinks anyone else should do. Your homework: Tonight, go outside and tell the moon and the stars where you'd like them to move.
Note results.
Write a three-page, double-spaced paper with the title, "How Unimportant I Am In The Scheme Of Things."

3. (You might want to sit down before you read this part, honey.)
Gary, pretty much no one, other than you, "follows" your writings, at least not for anything other than a good laugh, or to heighten their sense of gratitude that there is someone lower on the evolutionary ladder than they are. (And I know, you probably don't believe in evolution. I rest my case.)

4. I'm having a hard time typing this because I'm laughing so hard I keep making typos:

Why makes you think I have ANY concern about how you see me? How you see me says everything about you, and nothing about me. In fact, if you thought highly of me, I'd lose sleep wondering where I went wrong. Go do your homework.

5. My identity is None Of Your Business. I realize that concept--something not being your business--is outside your teensy, narrow, myopic worldview. Truth is Truth (capital "T" intended) regardless of who speaks it. I owe you nothing, including my identity. Silly boy. Please repeat today's homework every day until you get that. Being the dullard that you are, it may take you longer.
(You may have to look up "dullard," Gary. Try to comfort yourself in the knowledge that, by learning its meaning, you're actually becoming less of one. You can thank me later.)

6. I don't care what Joe did wrong in his life, on the level which you concern yourself. I also know he was attacked in much the same manner, and if he responded on that level, so be it. He also continued to create enormously positive results for his fellow Hoosiers and for people all over the world. No one, including Joe, ever claimed he was without fault, and only you seem to be focused on endlessly pointing out his shortcomings. Sad, really, since I have no doubt that you are, at least offline, at least that hard on yourself. You should really lighten up and unclench your sphincter, Gary.

6. Joe's dead. You win the "Who Gets To Live Longer" contest. Congratulations. He won pretty much all the other ones, including "Who Gets To Have A Richer, Fuller, More Meaningful Life Than Gary Welsh, And Make More Of A Positive Difference In The World" one. Sorry.

Homework time, Gary.

2010-09-03 10:12:09

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Vore:

1. Thank you for your gracious observations about my demeanor, my wit, etc. I appreciate your attempt at civility, truly.

2. Thank you, too, for your condolences. I accept them.

3. I don't purport to have the honor of being your "friend," Mr. Vore, and your putting quotes around the word unsuccessfully attempts to paint a scenario in which I am presuming something I am not presuming, or perhaps betraying you or making assumptions I am not making. Perhaps someday we will be friends; currently we are not even acquaintances.

I make the observations I share from a place of being both a friend and a fan of Joe Miller's, and from a place of having at least a little more information than you and Mr. Welsh do about the matters. I know people all over the world are searching online for information about Joe and his passing during this very difficult time, and I wish to have *some* voice heard other than those who ignorantly and ungraciously continue to kick a dead man, i.e., Mr. Welsh, or those who seem to primarily view his passing as a chance to advance their media-conspiracy views, i.e., You.

4. You're right, Mr. Vore: I don't know you. All I know of you is from your online posting, and the time and effort you put into creating the graphic depiction of a purported media conspiracy, stirring up shit where there was none to be stirred.
I don't know why the Star pulled its online post; they certainly couldn't pull it from the thousands of newspapers that went out bearing the same information. Perhaps they realized they misspoke, or they reported something that was factually not yet known. Perhaps they did it out of respect for Joe's family. Regardless, the information is out there; perhaps they just decided not to perpetuate their mistake. I don't really care; anyone who gets their news from the Star deserves the consequences.

5. "The lack of verifiable news made the situation difficult to understand."
Mr. Vore, your ability or inability, to understand, sadly, is not the concern of the Star or the local media. Their business is to sell advertising. Period. If the Pulliams thought they would sell more ads by running liberal pieces, or original ones, or anything remotely more balanced than the regurgitated drivel they get from the Fox News Channel, they'd publish it in a heartbeat. I mourn the Star of my youth, flawed as it was. At least then one could read Earl Wilson or Tom Keating for some sense of dignity, or to know what was going on outside of Indy. Today they barely make an effort to pretend they are doing more than stringing together ads with days-old pieces from AP or Reuters. It's embarrassing.

(Cont'd)

2010-09-03 10:56:41

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

(Cont'd)

6. "Pwned" is not "pawned." It's more akin to being p-whipped. When Gary Welsh calls you "John" in his blog comments and thanks you for creating the aforementioned info-graphic, please forgive me if the image that comes to mind is that of the Wicked Witch of the West cooing over her favorite pet flying monkey. I jes' calls 'em as I sees 'em...

7. Rumors are only rumors because someone else said them and you repeat them, while not knowing the facts. There are facts about raids and Joe's death that some people know; you're just not one of them. There is information which you are rightfully entitled to have reported to you by governmental agencies, and of course, you are allowed to know whatever else you dig up, but no one owes you every detail of Joe's death, or his business dealings.

8. What you find "unbelievable" only reflects your capacity to believe, not the Truth in these matters. Sometimes things happen that are unbelievable to us. Especially sad, in this case.

Best wishes, Mr. Vore.

2010-09-03 10:57:51

Roberta X [unverified] said:

The Pulliam family does not own the Star. Ganett does -- and they are definitely to the left of the Pulliams.

A dead businessman might not be news, even if his private life and product line were of such wise as to generate juicy rumor. News of any raid on the facilities, etc. may be slow to develop, especially after the sudden death of one of the principals.

2010-09-03 18:15:47

Interested Observer [unverified] said:

gimmeaf**kinbreak must be Keith Norcross of Crown Hill Cemetary. He has been bragging to any one who will listen to him about how much time he spent writing JFM's obituary for the Star. He spun quite a fairytale. The truth will emerge. How much does an obit like that costs these days, Ruth?

2010-09-03 22:03:14

Interested Observer [unverified] said:

That's Keith Norwalk, not Keith Norcross. Sorry. It's past my bedtime.

2010-09-03 22:18:19

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Roberta-
Thanks for clarifying exactly where the blame for the execrable pap known as The Indianapolis Star lies.

Interested Observer-
Not Keith here, but it's good to know who wrote the excellent obit. I'll be certain to compliment him on Tuesday.

Also, I.O., care to back up your assertion that some part of Joe Miller's obit is untrue? Methinks someone is Sour Grapes.

You can check the obit rates with the Star; they're not secret. And as I said before, it's a scam that one has to go through a funeral home in order to place an obit. Can anyone say "monopoly?"

2010-09-03 22:44:58

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

I'll reply briefly, as there's not much to say to our "anonymous friend," who doesn't even understand the use of the word "friend" in a debate is an attempt at respect where it might be warranted; clearly it isn't warranted, after so many baseless remarks.

Perhaps Mr. Welsh used my name and referred to my infographic because that is what one does as a reporter of news? I respect his reporting - even though I disagree profoundly with him on politics. There once was a day and time when such people were allowed to talk with one another civilly...

And since the early mentioned semi-anonymous writer keeps pushing, you have ending my "respect" for the mourning period. I was going to blog about this a week from today, but why wait?

Anyone who says JFM was a "gay man" is practicing in euphemism; he was a pedophile, period. JFM was someone for whom the legal age of consent was always too high. And his travels, and philanthropy were driven by this need to find a certain kind of boy, e.g., below driving age in Indiana, from what I know. He was never a gay activist; at best, he was a "gay opportunist" who used his money to get what he could. And he spread that money around in a way which would certainly be an embarrassment to anyone who found out what was really going on; I'm sure he did this quite consciously: he was the ultimate Machiavellian.

I know of Joe's pedophilia from first-hand interviews with an individual who JFM found at 12-14 years old. JFM knew I knew this, and it caused quite a few problems between us. When I broached the subject with him in 2005, he showed no remorse.

Some in Indiana knew this, some knew it only as rumor--many, perhaps most people, didn't know it. This is not a political issue, by the way: among the few who did know were folks on both sides of the political aisle.

So, do you want to keep upping the ante Mr. Anonymous Nobody? There's plenty more. But I suggest everyone shut-up for a few days to give the remaining family a chance to mourn; then we can continue, if someone wants.

-jmv

2010-09-04 11:58:49

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Vore:

I understand completely how you used the term "friend": as a means of misdirection, meant to lull me into a false sense of camaraderie. That's why I called you on it, asshole. I wasn't about to fall for it, or for your shallow compliments, also intended to lull me into some stupor while you waited out your self-imposed mourning period before launching your attack. I know too well the tricks of the rattlesnake, and snake is what you are. (My apologies to Crotalus cerastes for the comparison.)

Thank you for illustrating the depth of commitment you hold to your so-called civility and morals, Mr. Vore, and for giving me such power over your actions. You respond exactly like a man guilty of domestic violence who, when caught, whines, "She made me do it." You wouldn't know civility if I strapped some to a Mack Truck and hit you with it. Or, better yet, if I printed out its definition in 200-pt. red-and-blue italicized text, tabloid-style, a la your modus operandi.

Wow. Two paragraphs in a row ending in Latin. Hope you're not breaking a sweat trying to keep up, John.

Besides, I think you have other reasons to sweat, John Michael Vore.

How laughable (and how troubling, both morally and legally--read on) to see that both your sense of civil behavior and your protocol around mourning can be summed up as: I have this really incendiary information (or hearsay) which I believe to be true, but I plan to wait even longer to share it, when it'll be even more a matter of the past, even more difficult to take action on, and extend even further the illusion that I matter, along with the pain I can wreak.

Now we learn, by your own admission, that you've had this supposed knowledge all along, but you've been waiting--what, out of some perverse sense of decency, to publicize it? And what does baring it all serve now, except to further prove that you are what I accuse you and Mr. Welsh to be: nothing more than grandstanding lowlife who measure their sense of importance in the world in direct correlation to how much feces they can stir up and then report on it?

(Cont'd.)

2010-09-04 18:20:38

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

(Cont'd.)

In fact, Mr. Vore, I really wish to commend you for your amazing courage, and for the selflessness of your confession. I have no knowledge of the behavior of which you accuse Joe Miller, but clearly, you do, and have had that knowledge for quite some time. To now admit it, so publicly, and to let us know that you have stood by and done nothing, notified no authorities, taken no action except to wait and use the information for nothing more than self-aggrandizement...wow. If what you say about Joe Miller is true, congratulations: you have admitted something even more reprehensible--you knew, and stood by and said nothing. Kudos, and major thanks on behalf of the children of the world. Do any readers know what kind of sentence "Aiding and Abetting" carries in this arena...?

I think you're going to wish you'd shut up a whole lot longer than another week, Mr. John Michael Vore, and you're going to wish you'd had the courage of your convictions back in 2005 (and earlier).

You make me want to vomit.

2010-09-04 18:23:10

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

P.S., JMV-

I can't help but notice how quiet Mr. Welsh (a.k.a. The Wicked Witch of the West) has been, while you, her favored pet flying monkey, are screeching loudly and proudly about the big doo-doo you just made, tracking it all over the internet.

See how apt my allusion was?

Good monkey. Goooooood monkey.

2010-09-04 18:53:01

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

Per usual, JFM's spokesman, in death, proves not to be a wise choice. The Wizard of Oz is the wrong movie choice; try the show, Hogan's Heroes: you are Schulz.

Why do you insist on tying me to Mr. Welsh, whom I've never met, and never even spoken to on the phone? But whom I have read, often, for his mostly on-the-mark, no-holds-barred reporting on Indianapolis politics?

Not having lived in Indiana since moving away in 1993, when I wrote my first book about closeted politicians in Indiana - JFM was not "my problem" but yours. I was fighting a battle with Catholic priests at the time, one which became more prominent ten years later.

As I said, while most didn't know - anyone claiming to be JFM's friend would have had to have been like Shultz from Hogan's Heroes, who could "see nothing" and could "hear nothing."

One imagines a great friend of JFM who continues to spew forth on this page, who wants to emulate the Great Donator, sitting in the next room playing cards, perhaps while Joe...use your imagination. If you didn't know, you didn't WANT to know, period; perhaps money blinded you like it did so many?

Many of those in power in Indiana did know, many of them; when they came to know this terrible truth, and why they didn't act is not for me to say - ask. Start with Mr. Miller's lawyer, my old "friend," - for this is the very cause of our loss of friendliness - and it was his re-introduction of me to JFM in 2003, at a quite famous "state" dinner that first rang the alarms...

...in 2005-7, while in Indiana, I DID act, as a long email trail shows to various members of news and political organizations…but one doubts my alarm bells then had any affect. I suspect it was changing political ambitions that finally brought an investigation into your mixed-up, wealthy friend.

-jmv

2010-09-05 08:15:52

John Michael Vore [unverified] said:

Please excuse the mistake of confusing "affect" with "effect" in the last line; as well there are typos in the earlier post, where in paragraph 3 should read "ended" rather than "ending"; and line 1 of that paragraph should read "earlier" rather than "early."

2010-09-05 08:22:01

Gary Welsh [unverified] said:

As I said before, the spirit of Joe Miller lives on. Name-calling and personal attacks on persons with whom he disageed using various aliases was his forte. gimmeanf ..., you know Mr. Vore as well as I do. I know him from these Internet discussions. He wishes to share a different aspect of Miller's life upon which I have not focused in spite of numerous rumors discussed among many prominent members of the community. I've chosen to focus on the same issue--Miller's manufacturing and distribution of an illicit drug he knew had extremely harmful consequences to the gay men who used his product. I have no first-hand knowledge of the other issues Mr. Vore raises. Unlike you, he is willing to put a name and face to his views. Again, it is easy to personally attack people while remaining anonymous as Miller did so often in his lifetime. In this regard, you are no different from him.

2010-09-05 08:25:24

Informatics411 [Member] said:

And also, since we are speaking in public, let me be clear about the legal aspects of this conversation or anything which may come up as a result of it.

This is my long-standing policy: I will answer any law enforcement questions regarding anything that I know at any time, any place, under any circumstances. I have immense respect for law enforcement in Indiana; in fact, I'm told that my fist book was used in court by some in going after abusive, predatory priests.

-jmv

2010-09-05 08:40:22

Informatics411 [Member] said:

(Note to readers of the blog: I decided to sign-up and become a member, since I'm spending so much time with Ruth et. al. "Informatics411" is my standard "internet name," found on my Portfolio, etc. for most of the last four or five years. And anyone with more information to contribute to what I've written may email me there via gmail.

Finally: I have now, asked for civility, called for a period of silence and extended condolences to JFM's friends and family. This request has been ignored; I will continue to respond to anything written, but will happily also shut-up to provide some space and time for those grieving. -John Michael Vore)

2010-09-05 08:43:37

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Johnny:

Cast me however you like; I couldn't care less what you think of me, which I know frustrates the hell outta you.

And rationalize it however you want: I don't care. The fact is that you say you knew about this purported behavior, and you didn't go to the police. I don't care who else you went to to gossip or seek agreement; all's I know is, you didn't go to the authorities. Sleep well on that, bottom-feeder. Sounds like, from your claims about outing politicians and accusing priests, that your pattern of behavior and attack are clear--just point fingers and tattle, but don't put your own ass on the line in an official or accountable way. Maybe someday you'll deal with your own anger, abuse issues and unfinished business directly, instead of looking everywhere else to give you the sense of justice you need.

How revealing that you accuse me of knowing and seeing what you knew, and take me to task, assuming that I'm in Indy, or even Indiana. I can honestly say that I know nothing about that of which you accuse Joe (if it even happened), so if anyone is Schultz in this scenario, it's you, bub. And still you're not going to the police. Make sure to wash under your fingernails, Pontius…

"One imagines…" No, sweetheart, YOU imagine, and what you imagine says everything about you and your frame of mind, and nothing about me or anybody else (that's called "projection," btw). How sad to have an imagination that spews forth such mistrust and bile…guess that's what happens when the info you claim to have just sits and festers inside you for years waiting for action to be taken; action beyond pointing fingers at others, saying it was "not 'my problem' but yours." I don't know how you can live with yourself.

And your "long-standing policy" is as laughable as it is disgusting: I will answer any questions, I just won't file a complaint or start something directly myself. If what you accuse Joe Miller of is true (and I have no reason to believe it is, since all I have is the accusation of, at best, a coward, and at worst, a conspirator), then you have stood by, knowing this abhorrent behavior was taking place, and would only speak out if someone else took action first. If you believe your accusations, then "one" can only "imagine": how many more instances of abuse took place in the years during which you stood by and did nothing?

Coward. John Michael Vore is a lowlife, dancing-on-graves, piece-of-dogshit-hiding-behind-a-facade-of-journalism coward.

And, thanks for stating the obvious, John Michael Vore, attacker of all and defender of none save himself: it's patently clear that you have no problem "Happily Shutting Up."

I cannot tell you what joy it gives me that, from now on, online searches of your name will bring up this interchange, and others will always have questions in their minds as to your integrity, your motives, your cowardice and your complicity.

Like how it feels to reap what you sow, Johnny?

2010-09-05 11:31:48

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Mr. Gary Welsh:

Keep beating the same, tired drum as Hank Wilson: that Poppers are harming and killing all these gay men (I guess all the hetero users are somehow spared, cause you never mention them…?), in spite of NOT ONE recorded or provable death from poppers, EVER. You mask your contempt for Joe Miller's Democatic activism behind a cloak of concern for the health of gay men, the same cloak you use to mask your homophobia. Don't think for a second that your actions are anything but transparent. You're just pissed because Joe contributed so much money to the other team.

In case you ever get as tired of hearing yourself as other are of hearing you, maybe you could record a "Side B" for your worn-out recording…how's about "Kissing Causes AIDS?" Clearly, you don't need any scientific evidence in order to make your claims, and all the evidence to the contrary (in this case, the complete lack of the thousands of deaths that would surely be there if even a small portion of poppers users died from them) won't shut you up.

Keep banging, Gary. It only continues to provide evidence as to why no one should take you seriously.

2010-09-05 11:34:49

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

And, lest we forget:

Joe Miller is dead. Apparently, by his own hand. One can only guess what his motivations were, but just for shits and giggles, let's assume that he died in a miasma of grief and remorse for all that he is accused of by Gary Welsh and John Michael Vore.

That would make his action a self-imposed death sentence.

Isn't that enough, Mr. Welsh and Mr. Vore? Does he need to be dead-er in order to satisfy you? What do you hope to gain by your continued (and planned-in-a-week, Mr. Vore--God, is that ever chillingly disgusting) attacks on him?

I can tell you what you hope to gain. It's what you both thrive on: a sense of importance in this world. A sense that you matter, manufactured by attacking others and stirring up shit and feasting on destruction while criticizing those who endeavor to create something positive in this world as Joseph F. Miller often did (regardless of his many frailties).

You, Gary Welsh and John Michael Vore, are critics in the basest sense of the term: You sit and watch, high on a hill as the battle wages below, and when the battle is over, you ride down and slay the victor.

You deserve each other, and those who listen to you deserve the sad world you claim only to report, but in fact create.

2010-09-05 11:52:47

DWBALL [unverified] said:

I think this is a time to honor and respect the family and friends of Joe Miller and give them time to grieve their loss. You two men are at such odds and I think you two are definately at odds with one another. I think you are respectfully entitled to your opinions on Joe's life and actions but this time is for his family and I find it appalling that you will not have the common decency to leave this alone for now. There is plenty of time later for you two to discuss and debate the moral issues involved here.

2010-09-06 19:48:07

gimmeaf**kinbreak [unverified] said:

Um, DWBall...

Jeez. Thanks so much for sharing.

Thanks, too, for adding so richly to the conversation. We really needed someone to chime in needlessly.

Fyi, I am one of the people you're so interested in protecting, i.e., a friend of Joe's. I appreciate your concern. However, it does not help me grieve to sit silently when I hear someone (Gary Welsh, a.k.a. "Advance Gary Welsh", continue to attack my dead friend with his lies, half-truths and junk science, or John Michael Whore--er, Vore--make reprehensible accusations of illegal behavior by my friend Joe that, if true, John Michael Vore colluded on via his silence and his refusal to go to the police (again, if it's true, which I have no reason to believe it is).

So, DWBALL, thank you for your concern, but if you really want to provide Joe Miller's family and friends with silence, then take your own advice and save us your well-meaning but sanctimonious posting. It adds nothing other than noise to the conversation.

Sincerely and directly,
GMAFB

2010-09-06 22:52:42

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