Let's do the numbers

Dateline: Fri 09 Oct 2009

A classic neighborhood brouhaha is brewing, right along with the fresh, organic, shade-grown coffee at Cafe Patachou, 4911 N. Pennsylvania.

The issue is the proposed expansion of restauranteur Martha Hoover, whose Patachou is a neighborhood staple. Hoover, an attorney by vocation and a foodie/cook by avocation, opened her little signature eatery in 1989, in the heart of Meridian-Kessler, where she resided at the time. Reviews were consistently glowing. The vibe, as well as the food, was good: Martha had a hit on her hands.

Now, with success firmly established -- she owns and operates six Patachou-style restaurants besides the original -- she wants to increase the first Patachou footprint, add a second restaurant (a pizzaria, Napolese), on the 49th and Penn corner and expand her kitchen to 500 square feet.

Hoover also wants to serve wine and beer at Napolese -- the two restaurants seemingly would compliment one another, since Patachou would be open for breakfast and lunch, with Napolese catering to the evening crowd.

Bryan Chandler of Eclipse Real Estate, the developer, says Napolese would occupy about 1,100 square feet with Patachou growing by about 800 square feet. All told, the buildings at 49th and Penn contain 12,000 square feet; a hair salon has already signed on. Other tenants -- Meridian Heights Dry Cleaners, a family operation in place for 75 years -- is uncertain of its future. D and Z Gifts, a great place for fresh flowers and cards, has closed at that location. Chandler is confident he will fill the other spaces with retailers, etc.

Neighbors who support the Patachou expansion -- and they are legion -- are swayed not only by fondness for Hoover and her popular restaurant but by the fact that the corner has been an empty eyesore for some time. Hamaker Pharmacy's pharmacist George Kaczmarski, who owned Hamaker Building -- all 12,000 square feet -- closed the friendly little drug store in 2007. Chandler and other investors purchased the site in Februray for "in the range of $1.5 million," says Chandler.

Pro-Patachouites also argue that a neighborhood pub or restaurant adds to ambience; Indianapolis, they say, needs more such charming urban venues, not fewer. And having a spot to get a glass of wine or a beer is an added bonus, they say.

However, other neighbors -- and they are legion -- are remonstrating, and their concerns are valid. The No. 1 issue, they say, is parking -- the corner is already packed in with vehicles driven by Patachou patrons, and the parking area can't take any more traffic. When the operation expands, and adds evening hours, where will all those drive-in diners park? On the street, of course. And that, emonstrators argue, will adversely affect quality of life for those living nearby.

Parking leads to the second concern -- safety. Remonstrators worry that alcohol and density of parking are a bad mix. There already is heavy pedestrian traffic at the corner, including neighborhood children walking to and from schools. The potential for a pedestrian being struck will increase as parking does, they fear. (The principals of two area schools, Immaculate Heart of Mary and St. Joan, have written letters expressing safety concerns).

Finally, remonstrators believe that more cars --  the developer hopes to turn the corner into a destination spot -- will cause an increase in crime, noise and litter. Studies show that car larcenies are the criime of first opportunity in densely parked areas, followed by crimes against homes and persons.

All of these issues will be on the table Oct. 20, when the Meridian Street Preservation Commission convenes to hear -- again -- the arguments on both sides.  Both remonstrators and Marthaites are upbeat; both are lobbying hard.

What I find most persuasive are the numbers. In order to get the scope of the expansion, one can look at other restaurants in the M-K area and nearby Butler-Tarkington. Chandler, however, suggests that running the numbers is a futile game. "It's not particularly relevant," he says, explaining that in November, Napolese may have just two tables outdoors, or as many as six in May.

Nonetheless, I crunched them. Check them out and see what you think:

Patachou -- Currently has 56 seats indoor and 3 outdoor (59 total); it would increase to 78 indoor seats and 48 outside for a total of 126 seats.

Napolese -- would have 40 to 48 indoor seats. The number of outdoor seats is still in flux, according to Christina Pippen, public relations spokesperson for Patachou. 

Still, that is a total of 166 seats (low estimate) for both restaurants on the same corner, not counting the Napolese outdoor seating -- a huge leap from the current 56 Patachou seats. At an earlier neighborhood meeting, Chandler had suggested there might be as many as 16 outdoor seats for Napolese (presumably in good weather).

If that number is close, figure on a total max of 182 seats for both operations.

However, again, the restaurants would not be open during the same hours. So take that into consideration as well.

Patachou would continue to service the breakfast and lunch crowd, with hours from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. Monday thru Friday and 8 a.m. to 2 p.m. on weekends.

Napolese would open at 4 to 4:30 p.m. and close at 10 p.m., according to Pippen. But other sources have said Napolese will stay open until 11 p.m. on weekends.

Now, let's compare just the seating/parking numbers with other nearby restaurants:

Moe and Johnny's at 5380 N. College has a total of 182 seats indoors -- 100 at the bar, 50 in the dining area and 32 at the coffee house. Moe and Johnny's also has 50 patio seats for a total of 232 capacity. Parking is available in front of the restaurant with 30 spots, and an additional 40 to 50 spots are designated a half-block away.

Meridian Restaurant and Bar at 5694 Meridian Street has a total of 129 seats inside (96 plus 33 at the bar) and 24 outdoor spots. That is a total of 152. The adjoining parking lot has 40 spots for cars.

Illinois Street Food Emporium at 5550 N. Illinois has 60 indoor seats and 35 to 40 outdoors --- a total of 100 or a little less. Parking is available on the street and at the CVS Pharmacy lot on 56th Street.

Oh Yumm! Bistro at 5615 N. Illinois Street seats 50 inside and 34 outside -- a total of 84 seats. There is parking in back of the restaurant as well as on the street.

So there you have it.

Does it seem like too big a growth spurt at 49th and Penn? Or is it, as another Martha might say, "a good thing"?

Residents of Meridian-Kessler are divided, sometimes bitterly so; friendships have been lost over this deal.

Let's hope that local government, in the form of the MSPC, can show the wisdom of Solomon in hearing this convoluted case.

In the meantime, please weigh in....




Tell The Truth [Member] said:

I love Martha's eateries. But here's the rub:

Zoning ordinances are there for a reason. Variances are supposed to be tough for a reason--statutes require that the petitioner present a clear case of hardship if the variance is not granted. (That standard is law, but the boards which hear these cases don't follow it often)

A slight variance is often not a bad thing, because things change with time. But by your measure, this is no small case. It's a huge variance. The congestion and parking issues are very difficult, once the toothpaste is out of the tube.

Local government has a checkered past with the variance thing. For proof, I have two words for you: Judith Conley. A variance that should never have been granted. Luckily the economy torpedoed the deal she mistakenly approved.

Add to that mix a variable some folks won't even know: the owner/developer has a history on interaction with neighbors, and it's not all good. A trail of misrepresentations, to be kind. He's often been arrogant and condescending with neighbors at other projects.

He needs the variance to charge better rent and attract better tenants. Because he paid big dollars for the building. But why is it the government's responsibility to bail out his investment?

When the MSPC is finished, I believe the process flows to the Board of Zoning Appeals or the Metro Development Commission. They're citizens, serving long hours for little or no pay. I respect that. But they oft depart from the statutory requirements for variances, and sharp developers like Chandler know it.

A question for those who favor this variance: was there any attempt to mitigate the parking and congestion difficulties?

2009-10-09 15:32:28

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

On reflection, "bail out" was a strong term. Strike it, and insert: "support with a variance"

2009-10-09 15:34:11

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

I'm reminded of Denver, where innovative (and popular) restaurants are nestled into residential areas (Duo comes to mind, for example) and the locals are thrilled rather than repulsed by the sight of successful entrepreneurial ventures.

Naptowners prefer their city to be sleepy.

If you don't like urban amenities (such as restaurants), why don't you just move out into the country where nobody'll park in front of your house!

2009-10-09 15:46:09

Shorty Long [unverified] said:

Your blog is boring just like your past Star reporting. Since you have long ago parted ways you can now be creative. Why are you doing old lady stuff.

2009-10-09 19:21:08

ruthholl [Member] said:

Plant. Sooo obvious. But cute, in a non-creative way.

2009-10-09 19:26:41

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Ms. Cynical, what makes you think Indy is sleepy?

Our air is cleaner 365/24/7 than Denver's. We sat on neighborhood comprehensive plan committees to help develop zoning classifications and growth goals, parcel-by-parcel, township-by-township. The City Council adopted that plan after a year of input and debate. It has flexibility, to be sure.

But this variance bends "flexibility" to far extremes.

They'll get their variance. They shouldn't but they will. We love independent eateries, especially Martha's. This isn't about eateries. It's about a sustainable growth plan that blends the wishes and needs of many sectors of the community.

And how money (developer's) and the applicant's jobs promise, that elusive mantra, elixir of All Things Ballard, can move the city to blink---big-time..

I'm out, Ruthie. Gonna meet Shorty for a Bloody at Mo and Johnny's.

2009-10-10 06:07:18

Shorty Long [unverified] said:

Dear "Tell the Truth":

Ruthie would prefer it by its real name, Morris and John's.

2009-10-10 06:52:29

hendy [Member] said:

When I lived W of Springmill on Kessler, I rued the fact that there weren't any restaurants nearby at *all*. Ok, there was once a MickeyD's at Michigan Rd, and now there's a Subway there, a fish & chicken across the street, the Starbucks, and supposedly, a Dunky Donuts coming soon. Up the street is DeliBerg <sic>, a Pizza Hut, and occasional Mexican restaurants, when they can stay in business.

Not a one serves alcohol, which is ok, because I don't drink and drive.

At 56th, there are four places, two with licenses. Cool. Along College, and now 54th, lots of places. I don't hear anyone complaining about their licenses. 49th and Penn has several places to eat. The Patachewies have to deal with alcohol like anyone else. Traffic has been trolling that corner since I was a child, over 50yrs ago. I remember going to the Linders there... the building now having had at least a half-dozen subsequent owners.

The ruse of pedestrian safety at night is a little silly 'cause kids aren't going to be walking to school around those times. Both JofA and IHoM are on Central, each many blocks away. These aren't abortion clinics, ya know. They're eateries with booze licenses. Sigh.

2009-10-10 08:37:29

ruthholl [Member] said:

The issue for pedestrian safety is that the schoolkids don't have school buses; they walk. Ernie Kobets of Illinois Street Food Emporium said that the corner, as it exists now, is a potential "child killer" -- and he's right. Pedestrians walk behind the cars, and of course a child is invisible.
(Incidentally, Clarke Kahlo has cited Ernie's development of the Bank of Indy, pizza, Hubbard and Cravens, etc., across the street as an example of good urban planning with nice green space. That development was also challenged by remonstrators, and the result is a better area).
Back to Patachou: Chandler says there will be sidewalks, wider ones than now, in front of the parking area and the cars will back directly out onto the street. They are also talking about bike racks and space for strollers.
I think it is time for both sides to look at the plans. Chandler and Pippen said they are available. I hope to do that...this week.
Thanks to TTT for a long history.
Gotta join you for that drink, Shortstuff. You need to unbend.

2009-10-10 09:27:02

John M [unverified] said:

I think people understand that those schools don't have buses, Ruth. IHM is 1.2 miles from the intersection of 49th and Penn and actually is closer to the intersection of Broad Ripple and College than it is to the "offending" intersection. St. Joan is a mile from 49th and Penn and is much closer to high-speed intersections such as 42nd and College and 38th and Central. This area has been used as a commercial node for decades. There is plenty of street parking within a couple of blocks. Nearly all of the properties nearby have driveways. This is a city, M-K is a city neighborhood, and 49th and Penn is a commercial intersection. Cities have traffic.

The development with Bank of Indianapolis may be a lot of things, but "urban" it isn't. There is twice as much parking as building. It has an odd, suburban setback and yard in front. Most of the stores do not engage the street. It's a suburban strip mall wedged into a city lot. The likes of Clarke Kahlo can't see the forest for the trees. Doesn't he realize that the more difficult it is to build with any density in the city, the easier it becomes to say, "F it, let's move to a strip mall in Fishers."

2009-10-10 10:21:21

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Wow, John M. Interesting post.

Completely void of commercial development and zoning reality. But itneresting.

The BoI development has more parking because it was anticipated it might be needed, for current use and any future potential use.

I hope Martha and the neighbors can work out a compromise. She needs to be in that building. I don't give a hoot about the liquor license. The zoning variance, tho...that's huge, and it shouldn't be treated lightly.

Folks do walk more these days. In all directions from that corner. Throwing dozens of cars into the hourly-parking search is perhaps inevitable, but anything that cna be planned to help the situation, should be done.

Folks have a right to remonstrate against this--that's the vehicle we all cna use to force difficult negotiations and concessions.

Two thigns this developer is loathe to do in most cases.

2009-10-10 11:45:21

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

"Ms. Cynical, what makes you think Indy is sleepy?"

Oh, please. Shooting at development of a dinner restaurant in a commercial node because children walk by there on the way to school? How do all those kids in Manhattan make it on those busy streets and sidewalks!

Naptown needs to wake up if it wants a vibrant urban life. Residential / commercial / and office uses need to occupy the same streetscape. Didn't any of you read Jane Jacobs?

2009-10-10 14:03:18

Write Man [Member] said:

For what it's worth, I live just around the corner from Patachou (and dearly hope the cleaners don't leave). I've watched countless for sale signs go up in our neighborhood, and worry about our property values. My sense is that amenities like this are very important to the long term valuation and appreciation of the property (Fresh Market didn't hurt, and I think the Upland Ale outlet at 49th and College, and a rumored restaurant at that location) all improve the mix.

I would also say that 49th and Penn is already a very busy intersection through much of the day. It is a 4-way stop, and within two or three blocks are more 4-way stops and lights (meaning people don't motor too fast through the neighborhood). And though Mo and Johnny's is a fine little bar and hangout, I don't believe Napolese will be the sort of place you drop by for a beer. More like you have one with your pizza, a different thing -- not just hanging out and getting buzzed.

Will it require everyone to slow down a bit more, and will it be more congested? Probably. Will it add to the community? Yes, I think it will. If getting a variance forces Martha and Chandler to *adjust* their plans some, that's fine. Just looking forward to the pizza.

2009-10-10 16:30:15

ruthholl [Member] said:

It seems obvious that the sentiment here is pro-Patachou, with excellent arguments stated on both sides.
The bottom line is compromise -- and the realization that this restaurant is both needed and wanted at the corner.
But it is not over until it is over. One suggestion is to add some green space where cars now park (backing into the street). This would allow parking on Penn, in front of the newly-created green space. That sounds like a good plan.
I also think that adjusting the numbers down a bit would help. I am hearing higher figures from other sources which I will share as soon as I have verified them. I also believe I did not count the 8 existing counter stools that are at the current Patachou, which makes my number low.
Like Rodney King said, "can we please get along?"
But honestly, I think this process is healthy -- let's get it all out there, then work for a solution that is as acceptable as possible for both parties.
Can anybody say Nobel Peace Prize?

2009-10-10 17:43:43

hendy [Member] said:

Can you say unpaid lobbyist??


2009-10-10 18:39:00

ruthholl [Member] said:

Not a chance!

2009-10-10 19:47:22

Tom Greenacres [unverified] said:

"Oh, please. Shooting at development of a dinner restaurant in a commercial node because children walk by there on the way to school? How do all those kids in Manhattan make it on those busy streets and sidewalks!"

Roger that.

Came to Indianapolis in 1964, and it was sleepy indeed. Moved to NY and worked in Manhattan, which wasn't. Also lived and worked in the Lafayette Square area of St Louis.

These were vibrant, energized, creative places that attracted valued new residents.

Crowds of people create energy which in turn create commerce. Bustle is good for juicing up creative energy. (Nature abhors a vacuum, and Indianapolis still needs to be careful about being mistaken for one.)

The kerfluffle about kiddies being mowed down by cars was heard when the Monon was conceived. Piffle. (Helicopter parenting is responsible for turning out generations of kids who don't know what it's like to get dirty and scabbed up at play.)

If you want to keep bright young college grads satisfied with staying here and settling in Indpls, a vibrant social setting needs to be sustained.

Don't validate the late Irv Leibowitz' contention that Hoosiers settle for mediocrity because we fear change above all else.

2009-10-11 08:18:47

hendy [Member] said:

Abhor change before taxes? Oh. Right, I guess we *are* barely a blue state now...

2009-10-11 08:24:27

Mark Rutherford [unverified] said:

I wish my busy body neighbors would stop trying to stop progress in my area of the city, such as Hoover's expansion. They don't know better than the rest of us.

Indianapolis needs to promote the creation of vibrant evening additions such as what Hoover is planning at 49th and Pennsylvania.

I too remember Indianapolis as a sleepy place everyone wanted to leave when you graduated from high school. Let's hope we never return to that era again.

2009-10-11 10:43:10

Tell The Truth [unverified] said:

What Mark and many others are missing, is this salient fact:

Every single parcel in Marion County was addressed, township-by-township, in the Comprehensive Zoning Plan. Volunteer groups of citizens met with politicians (ugh) and DMD personnel over 15 months to come up with a guideline for zoning. The Comp Plan has room to grow, and is intended to be a guide, not a strict rule. It has breathing room for innovative changes, population shifts and commercial applications thereto.

That Comp Plan is the subject of much controversy. It was adopted by the CC Council. Zoning variances are statutorily required to prove hardship before they're granted. Now, you and I may think that's a high standard, but that's the law...has been for over 4o years.

The problem here, besides ignoring the input of hundreds of citizens during the Comp Plan's development, is scope.

Are the supporters of this variance convinced that size alone will make Martha's wonderful restaurant better?

That critical question hasn't been answered. The developer is officially the petitioner. It's his statutory burden to prove hardship, which he has not done.

If we lower the burden for variance petitioners any more (we've already seen the hurdle drastically lowered in more than one case over the last few years), the implications can be staggering. These variances set precedents for area properties, even properties across the county.

I love Martha's restaurant. Visit too often and have the waistline to prove it. I hope a compromise is worked out. I've worked with this developer before, and his idea of "compromise" is: "get outta my way now." This isn't just about too little parking and neighborhood congestion or kids walking by. There is a larger point here.....process.

But don't think for a minute that the hundreds of volunteers who work on zoning cases daily, are busy-bodies or malcontents. And for those who do think that, well...you're just not paying close enough attention. And I hope the zoning variance standard doesn't inappropriately impact a property of yours anytime soon.

2009-10-11 13:03:55

Nicolas Martin [unverified] said:

It's a property rights issue. The property owner should be able to use and dispose of his property as he sees fit. But how many of the people who think Martha Hoover should have the right to expand oppose the right of a restaurant owner to allow smoking? Rights are inalienable or they don't exist; and a society without property rights is a serfdom.

2009-10-12 09:54:08

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Nicolas, if only you were right. Alas, you are not. If a business owner wishes to open his/her doors to anyone in the general public, certain health, zoning and accomodation ordinances/laws must be obeyed. For public safety, among other long-established reasons.

This is not solely a property rights issue. Anything you build or use your land for, must fit inside the comprehensive zoning ordinances of your particular community. In this case, tremendous public input was made into those ordinances, and variances can be sought for certain specific instances.

Please don't trivialize this by calling it a property rights issue. It's much more. No property owners anywhere are allwoed to do whatever they want on their property. Except in certain parts of Morgan County.

But that's another story.

2009-10-12 11:18:26

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

Ah, yes. The Comprehensive Plan. Is that the same one that forbade commercial development west of the west leg of I-465, and then was breached when Golden Rule wanted to rezone a bunch of land south of 71st Street, promising "jobs"??

(Of course, Golden Rule never built there, and now it's Intech Park, with lots of vacant retail space to go along with its vacant office / light industrial space, including a shuttered restaurant right on 71st.)

We all love the Comprehensive Plan when it meshes with our personal views, and see it as an obstacle when we want to override it.

Fie on all you Naptowners who want Indy to remain as it was in the 1950s.

2009-10-12 11:42:37

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

Cynical, it's not that black-and-white. If we don't bend to every variance request, we're somehow stuck in the 1950s? And by the by, not everything from the Eisenhower era is bad. Well, except Eisenhower...

But you raise some good points.

And your history of Intech/Golden Rule is inaccurate. But your diagnosis of current condition is spot-on.

The Comp Plan is developed with massive citizen input. It is meant to be a guide, not a firm rule. When you have that kind of buy-in from all walks of life, in large number, a variance should be difficult.

Still, statutes govern the issuance of variances. If only those statutes were followed....proof of hardship is required.

What we need is a legislative change, but our cowardly Band of 150 won't tackle this anytime soon. That ployester clan would rather spend time in free Colts seats or at at IU or Purdue game, than tackle the tough issues.

And so it goes...

2009-10-13 07:50:15

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

In what way is my history of Intech/Golden Rule innaccurate?

That zoning change slid through twenty-some-odd years ago because Hudnut was dazzled by the prospect of 3000 (or some such huge number) of "new" jobs -- which, of course, never materialized because Golden Rule never built on its land west of I-465.

2009-10-13 16:10:34

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

The current Intech development was begun by the (then-) Eaton & Lauth Development Corp., later Lauth Development. At about 65-35 tenant-to-spec ratio.

In other words...just enough signed tenants to get a construction loan. And not enough to get a perm loan. 'Twas the stuff of the 90s.

The Golden Rule fiasco fizzled before the current development ever took place. They stayed east of 465--right where they'd bought land years before.

There isn't "lots" of shuttered retail space. That wasn't spec-built. It was built for specific users.

And the Comp Plan suggested, prior to E&L's use of that parcel, that the zoning was "transitional," meaning going to go commercial ultimately. Neighbors, including the highly-organized Pike Township Residents' Association, were not heavily opposed.

That said, the whole intersection west of 465 should probably never have been built. The existing developments in the area could easily have sucked up Scott Jones's company and other businesses.

But there was, and still is, this insane 465 desire to have your name on a building. Like whizzing on your territory to mark it. Completely testostrone-driven and senseless.

There are probably some bankers who lost their jobs over that loan. And they should've.

2009-10-14 17:24:21

Bob [unverified] said:

This is beyond silly. Here's an idea: each of you take tke the money you spend on coffee (just coffee) for one week a month and give it to Wheeler Mission. Then we can go back to a discussion of your self-absorbed lives in your insulated "neighborhood."

2009-10-14 20:30:27

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

You're close, but not on target TTtheT.

The Pike Township Residents Association didn't have time to respond to the Golden Rule rezone, which slid through in record time (10 days, as I recall, between announcement and passage). The rezone was politically "greased" to bypass what would be inevitably negative neighborhood comment.

It was that Golden Rule rezone that allowed Eaton & Lauth to plunk down Intech Park when Golden Rule couldn't get the money together to build on the site.

Fortunately, the PTRA got its act together and threw the monkey wrench of citizen outrage into the rest of the proposed rezone, which was ultimately intended to spread across the south side of 71st Street between I-65 an I-465, with a succession of restaurants, filling stations and bars to connect the two interstates.

2009-10-14 23:25:04

Tell The Truth [Member] said:

I don't know where you're getting your information, Cynical. I was there. I witnessed this zoning case.

PTRA is an organization for which I have tremendous respect. Their president, Susna Blair, hasn't missed an important zoning case in her career---ever. They got ample notice. At least one city county council member asked PTRA their thoughts about the case, and there was little or no response.

There are three or four neighborhood groups who "do rezoning" right--PTRA, Nora, a couple of others. Their members are relentless monitors of the public process. Once in a blue moon, like the Kroger Monon case, something slips through the crack (that one wasn't typical rezoning, but it was played ona different stage--the parks Dept.).

The "res tof the proposed rezone" was actually Phase II or an expanded rendition of the original plan. And E&L was there the whole time, every step of the way.

Ain't zoning fun?

2009-10-15 07:38:34

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

I, too, was "there".
Susan Blair was not (it was before her time on PTRA).

PTRA ratcheted up its antennae after this whole Golden Rule fiasco. It was the clarion call: PTRA was goaded into becoming a "relentless monitor of the public process" BECAUSE of this egregious effort by Hudnut et al to subvert public input.

2009-10-15 14:35:34

Mike W [unverified] said:

Martha Hoover is what Indianapolis should be dying for. An entrepreneur with vision and a highly successful track record. I've been a Patachou customer since almost day one, and it's a great meeting spot for the neighborhood. Good food, even better ambiance, a place you can go and always see someone you know. It's not now or going to be a Broad Ripple type of bar operation. Knowing Martha and her focus on image, the beer will not be cheap but it will taste great with a pizza. She's not going to do anything that would spoil the brand that she's worked hard to develop. Let's support local, independent business people when we can and within reason.

2009-10-16 15:53:33

Ms. Cynical [unverified] said:

I second Mike W's comments.

If Indy is to thrive, it needs more Martha Hoovers...more local, independent business people with vision!

2009-10-16 21:41:06

Fellowateur [unverified] said:

This type of ultra conservative, turn out the lights at eight crap, make me want to pack my kids up and move to Chicago where traffic is swift, kids are faster, and the residents actually enjoy learning about what is going on in the world around them. People in Indy always say "If Indy wants to grow up" blah, blah, blah...well, I am of the opinion that Indy *doesn't* want to grow up! There is a principle in business that says "you either grow, or you die", and I think this principle can be applied to communities as well. The real shame here is that a few remonstrators (like Clark Kahlo, who has no accomplishments to speak of except that of a career remonstrator) are able to raise such a fuss. Trust me old stodgy folk, if all of the young people, the future of this city, don't start to get some culture, we're gonna leave, and if we leave your gonna be screwed. Support the restaurant, drink a beer, check your rearview an extra time (or two) and get off of your high horses. For it is the young people who are rescuing your beloved MK from the property tax debacle, and we're tired, and want a glass of wine.

2009-10-21 00:28:33

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